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14/08/2006, 8:56 PM Warrior Joined on 14/08/2006 Posts 1 ATTENTION ALL WANNABES!!! ATTENTION ALL WANNABES!!! Anyone who is thinking about a career as a commercial/professional pilot should read the PPRuNe forums. I've posted a link to a Sticky thread which should be read before you post in the forums - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649 - Use the search function before you post because it's very likely that your question has been covered before. Have a look at the RAeS website too (can't remember the link) and the BALPA website - www.balpa.org.uk   I presume that most people on these forums read Pilot magazine, and will be familiar with the articles about Will Swinburn. He chose to train at Oxford Aviation Training (OAT) which is the most expensive route. He spent around £80k on training with OAT, and another £20k on a Type Rating (TR) with GECAT, totalling a whopping £100k to land a job with easyJet. He chose the most expensive way, but not necessarily the best way.   I'm sure those of you who read Pilot magazine will have seen letters written by other student pilots, who are training with different Flight Training Organisations (FTOs), via the integrated or modular route.   The Integrated Route: This is the most expensive way to train. It involves training on a full-time course at a single FTO. OAT is an example of this. OAT costs approx. £80k. The price quoted in their brochure is around £60k, but remember, food and accomodation (which will not be cheap in Oxford), exam resits, and extra flying hours will add on a large amount of money to that £60k. There are cheaper and arguably better options if you decide to embark on integrated training. The other FTOs are Flight Training Europe based in Jerez (FTE), Cabair in the UK, and the Western Australian Aviation College (WAAC). I'll be honest with you, I don't know too much about Cabair and WAAC, although they are cheaper than OAT. Cabair has very strong links with Flybe and many of their graduates join the airline. FTE costs approx. £60k, but the big difference is that food and accomodation are included in that price, so you save around £20k over OAT (around the price of a TR!). FTE have an excellent reputation, every bit as good as OAT, if not better. There are many airlines linked with FTE, and they often run mentored airline pilot schemes through FTE. If you've compared the courses of FTE and OAT, you'll notice a few differences (besides the cost!). In OAT they do an aditional module called a Jet Orientation Course (JOC) which is not part of the course at FTE. You may think, this JOC will give me an advantage over everyone else. Not so! In fact, British Airways (who have recruited from FTE, OAT, and Cabair) send all their low-hours pilots to do a JOC at FTE!!! Even those who already did a JOC at OAT!!! You may also notice that OAT says it has full motion Boeing 737 simulators. In fact, they really have generic sims called FNPT2, the same as FTE, only they are configured to look like the B737. This is not like being in a real B737 flight simulator, and the handling characteristics are quite different. When you record this in your log book, you will be recording FNPT2, not B737. It doesn't make the slightest bit of difference at all.   When you look at the employment statistics of some FTOs, you should be aware that the FTO may not have in many of the cases helped the individual sort out their first job. Many integrated students have to sort out their own jobs, while the FTO will put it as a statistic on their website as one of their graduates who has landed a job. I was looking through some of last years aviation magazines that I have and found an article with an OAT student quoted along the lines of "I didn't know much about the industry when I started training". To me, this sounds very foolish. Did he have plans in place to shell out £80k+ without knowing about the industry he was getting into? Unfortunately, people see the glossy full-page ads and assume that OAT is the best and only place to go. DO YOUR HOMEWORK FIRST!!!   The Modular Route: The modular route can be done at your own pace in your own time, or can be structured to be completed in the same time-frame as an integrated course. You can choose to do the different parts of your course at different FTOs. Whereas the Integrated route costs £60k (FTE) to £80k (OAT), the modular route can be done for around £35k-£40k. The thing to rememeber when embarking on the modular route is to put some serious thought and planning into where you will complete different parts of your course and how much it will cost. The modular route gives you a lot of freedom, and you have the opportunity to go anywhere for your training. You can train for foreign pilots licences for example in South Africa, New Zealand, Canada, USA,  and return to Europe to convert your licence to the JAA European Licence. You get the same licences as on the integrated courses but at around half the cost. I personally think that South Africa and Canada great options.   Some people argue that you have a slightly higher chance of getting your first job if you go down the integrated route. This is somewhat true. Some airlines prefer to hire low-hour pilots (i.e. those just finished training) from integrated courses. This is because they have a reasonable idea of the standard of pilot they are getting. BUT, huge numbers of modular students also get their first job soon after training. Provided that the modular student has structured his/her training well, and has trained for quality not quantity, they have as much chance as integrated students at getting their first job. I should add that when you have gained experience, it doesn't matter where you've trained, but, you'lll never guess, your EXPERIENCE!!! No matter how you go about training, it is possible that you will find it hard to get a job. You may have to go into instructing or aerial survey or another area of aviation if you can't get a job with an airline. Some people from OAT, FTE, Cabair, etc. have failed to get airline jobs for one reason or another. Some will give up, while others will get another flying job, and may eventually land an airline job. Nobody can guarantee you a job, no matter how much money you spend.   To go to university or not??? This is a very intersting topic. In Europe, pilots don't need a degree to get an airline job. In North America, pilots DO need a batchelor's degree to get an airline job. I often wonder if/when pilots in Europe will need a degree to get an airline job. Some companies prefer pilots who have degrees, especially if they are young and have low-hours. Having a degree is a sign of maturity, and certainly looks good on any job application. It is also a great Plan B to have if you lose your job as a pilot for one reason or another. However, pilots still are hired in Europe without a degree. I personally think at the young age of 17/18 finishing school, it is hard to be patient, and have the discipline to spend 3 or 4 years in university when you could fly planes. That's why I think it's all the more impressive if you go to university and stick it out. Remember, when you finish university, you will still only be around 22!!! It's possible to fly commercially until the age of 65! Think about it.................   I've only mentioned a handful of FTOs, but do your research and you will uncover plenty more. I haven't talked about military flying, but it is also another great option, and it won't cost you a penny. You can do your own homework on that.   Bit of airline babble - Do you dream of flying a Boeing 777? Being Top Gun? (cue the music) Most commercial pilots (airline, bizjet, etc.) don't really mind what they're flying. All modern jets are designed to ease the workload of the pilot, and are all quite similar. Pilots care about their lifestyle and salary etc., not what bus they're driving. And yes, they moan about their jobs like everyone else!!!   Those of you who know about the industry and flight training will be aware that I have omitted one very good UK FTO. They have the best graduate placement of any FTO. I'm not going to name them, because if you put a bit of effort into researching pilot training you should come across them. I'll point out that they do not advertise in magazines, neither do they have glossy brochures with pictures of 737s. But then again, they don't need to. It's up to you to find out........................   When considering where to train, look at all your options. Be patient! Make a shortlist and visit the different FTOs before you decide where to train. The most expensive or the one with the biggest advertising budget may not necessarily be the best FTO!    Report

08/12/2006, 3:19 PM Flying Surfer Joined on 01/06/2003 Bristol Posts 9 Re: ATTENTION ALL WANNABES!!! Interesting to see how many people have viewed this post and yet no one has anything to say!! I went the modular way started with the PPL in the US back in 1997 paid for one of those "all in" courses and came away with 52 hours TT and a PPL. Then built to 100 hrs paying £80-90/hour but saved money by asking friends to share the expenses of flying with me. Did a correspondence course and then did a few crammer courses for the Navs & techs and then back to the US to get to about 150 Hours before going to OAT to finish off. Since then I have accumulated about 800 TT of which 200 is multi and all along i have been keeping tabs on what things cost and that included flights from UK-US, accommodation everywhere i stayed etc and licence issues, medicals and the list goes on and i have spent just close to £60K!!! But look how many hours I have! I looked for the cheapest flight schools in the US, cheapest accommodation and roughed it if i needed to. Booked last minute flights and really shopped around. When I had finished at OATS with my 260 Hours and CPL/IR Frozen atpl I had spent £31K, many other guys at OATS that i did the curse with had spent close to 60K but then there Dad was paying for it, in my case I was paying and working in between! I know prices have gone up now but i reckon that it can still be done for 40K.   Good luck            Report

08/12/2006, 11:31 PM MichaelXPO Joined on 25/11/2006 Posts 49 Re: ATTENTION ALL WANNABES!!! well not gona say much at all,,but im hopefully gona take the intergrated route at OAT. well that is after university.  Even though as you have pointed out OAT is very expensive,they still do have a good reputation,,although im now second guessing on the basis that at FTE is better to take a JOC...but i still got a while to make my mind up,,still doing my research cheers for this post,really informative stuff!    Report

09/12/2006, 11:59 AM Ryan Joined on 11/06/2006 Posts 35 Re: ATTENTION ALL WANNABES!!! Cloud 9 Aviation has bought base at a few airfields in the North!!!! Sheffield City Airport - Yorkshire Flight Training Leeds/Bradford - Leeds Flying School Gamston Airport - Ground School These guys have been running commercial training over in Cheque to keep the cost down and now there've opened there schools in the North of England at very affordable prices! I've been quoted £35K after PPL. So, that's 100 hour building, Night rating, Ground School, Commercial flight training with IR and MCC. And a instructor rating. I might have missed something out but you earn your fATPL wtih IR and Instructor rating. Give them a call and see what you recon. 0114 201 5499 Good Luck with your training.    Report

03/01/2007, 3:50 PM robdagg Joined on 03/01/2007 Posts 1 Re: ATTENTION ALL WANNABES!!! Hi Flying Surfer, Did you encounter much negativity in interviews because of following the modular route for training? Do you mind if I ask what the multi hours are on? Rob    Report

03/01/2007, 4:12 PM Flying Surfer Joined on 01/06/2003 Bristol Posts 9 Re: ATTENTION ALL WANNABES!!! I have flown mainly senecas (I,II,III) and Duchess (BE76). I have only been to 1 interview where i was offfered the job but turned it down to carry on surfing that summer, sounds like madness, but i was having too much of a good time and earning more money than i would be flying. I don't think doing the modular course should change anything at interview time at the end of the day all they want to be sure of is that you are good at what you do. They are also looking for "complete people", many of the guys i did my training with were spotters, geeks and if i ran a business i would want to make sure i had no freaks like that working for me!! People who live, eat and sleep flying are boring and that will come across in the interview. Anyway good luck with which ever route you decide to take, i did the modualr becaue it meant that i could work and between flying and pay as you go so it turned out cheaper in the long run, it cost me £31000 from 0-270 hours with frozen ATPL and did my final training at OATS (not the cheapest), as well as visiting the US 3 times. That figure included EVERYTHING, accommodation, flights, books, exams, fees etc.just not the food. I started in 1997 and was ready by 2000. Ben      Report

04/02/2007, 3:20 PM Ben Lavender Joined on 29/07/2006 United Kingdom Posts 30 Re: ATTENTION ALL WANNABES!!! PPRune forums put me down, half of it only applies to people who don’t succeed. Which means nothing to other people who are trying just as hard and it doesn’t mean they’re going to fail too.    Report

25/07/2007, 5:02 PM mpp1 Joined on 25/07/2007 Posts 5 Re: ATTENTION ALL WANNABES!!! Hi, The modular route is a good way to get your ATPL and don´t write off going to Spain to do the flying as it has good weather, is cheaper than the UK - about same cost, but in euros. If  anyone is interested in more details - I live in Spain and fly in Spain, so I can put you in touch with some good schools if you need more information. Regards   Mike      Report

05/08/2007, 6:31 PM trina Joined on 05/08/2007 Posts 1 Re: ATTENTION ALL WANNABES!!! thank you for the information..it has given me an insight into what i need to expect over the forthcoming year.      Report

15/01/2008, 10:48 AM Mo0g Joined on 15/01/2008 Posts 1 Re: ATTENTION ALL WANNABES!!! Hi Mike, I am looking, eventually, to do my PPL this year and I am currently weighing up options for flying schools and how to approach everything. Whilst investigating Cabair as an option I noted they have a Spanish affiliate and the idea of getting some guaranteed fair weather flying, at a most likely cheaper cost, seems good to me, but I am having problems actually finding out who/where the Cabair affiliates are in Spain.  I did a google search and found your post! It would be great to hear about the options in Spain, not necessarily Cabair, especially any in the Granada area as the other half quite likes the idea of a week or so pottering about in Southern Spain whilst I chalk up some flying hours! Thanks Mark    Report

30/01/2008, 9:08 PM ulsterflyer Joined on 30/01/2008 Posts 1 Re: ATTENTION ALL WANNABES!!! Warrior, Is the obscure but 'very good UK FTO' you speak of Bournemouth Commercial Flight Training Centre by any chance?    Report

10/03/2012, 5:38 PM Wazman1122 Joined on 10/03/2012 Posts 1 Re: ATTENTION ALL WANNABES!!! Can you tell me which FTO you "omitted". ive looked around so much i just dont know. is it ctc?    Report

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